his military trial coupled with edward snowden's revelations over top secret nsa surveillance programs raising questions about motives of different so-called hackers. in the world of cybersecurity, there are two types of hackers. on one hand you have the so-called good guys. known as the white hats, who have the goal to find holes in the system so they can be fixed and not exploited. on the other hand there are the black hats, the hackers who take advantage of those weaknesses and those quite frankly are the bad guys. we have a columnist and former publisher of "the wall street journal.". gordon, one of the things that came up in the conversations about these stories is whether or not the government wears the black hats or the white hats. how would you answer that question. >> let's start at the beginning which is why we're having debate about government surveilance. at end of the day the reason is, our 9/11 happened. in the 1990s, there were at the request of privacy advocates new rules put in place. made it very hard for intelligence agencies to gather the dots of intelligence. if th